powerrangersfandomcom-20200223-history
Forum:Collectibles
Case Here is my case for individual Collectible Devices. I believe this to be a watershed moment in the history of the Tokupedia family of Wikis. 1. This is the RangerWiki, a wiki for Power Rangers/Super Sentai. This is not Wikipedia, where they have to juggle Rangers alongside species of Theropod, football pitch-sized asteroids, islands in the South Pacific, 13th century Swedish kings, World Cup matches and Eurovision entries. The way I see it, pretty much anything relevant to our franchises, most certainly something that is a constant throughout the series, should be documented as extensively as they can, no matter how "minute" they may be. Indeed, Tokusatsu wikis have grown, perhaps not as much as they could and should have, while ironically toku-themed pages in particular on Wikipedia have been mercilessly "trimmed". An equivalent to Wikipedia's notability policy should not exist here; infact, as far I can see, it currently does not, at least Officially. What is even the point of this Wiki if we refuse to cover perfectly valid content? 2. The one and most common objection directed towards the content in question that I am creating is that they will never be anything more than a "perpetual stub". To anyone who really looks at what I am doing, this is blatantly untrue. Now, what is a stub? Officially, according to Wikia, the threshold for "stub length pages" is little as 300 bytes; that is, any page above 300 bytes (1 byte = 1 letter or character) in content is not a stub in the eyes of Wikia. Going beyond that, another test would be does the page's content fill a page on the screen. In the vast majority of what I have created, the answer is yes to both. Now, to the Ranger Keys... On the Metal Heroes Wiki, I created pages for the 16 as a test bed for the Ranger Keys here. Of these 16 keys, 6 appeared for a maximum 30 second cameo in one film, while the remaining 10 exist only as toys. However, even these pages are more than substantial; for instance, the currently stands at roughly 2,700 bytes, while Super Hero Taisen Z's amounts to over 4,200 bytes. In the case of keys seen in Gokaiger, they would all be exponentially larger than even that. In an earlier argument which took place last year on the Kamen Rider Wiki, I distinctly recall asking for a fixed criteria to be set for stub pages, not necessarily as little as 300 bytes, only for my request to be ignored. Now I must insist: if you are going to threaten to block people for creating so-called "stub" pages, which is already an outrageously draconian attitude to take on a Wiki in my opinion, you must set a fixed and explicit standard, as much as I would like to avoid a "notability policy", lest people be blocked for no reason other than the whims of others. A very serious problem that has plagued this family of Wikis for many years is that there seems to be a number of unofficial "rules" which are written nowhere but within people's heads. 3. The simple fact is that a great many pages for collectibles do already exist in some form and have done for years. *The pages for the auxiliary RyuSouls are pretty much equivalent to various Form pages which are commonplace on the Rider Wiki *Pages for Legend exist as . *Pages for the vast majority of (at least the 60) exist as the articles. *Pages for the vast majority of Kyutama exist as the Kyutama Systems. *More or less all exist as pages. *Pretty much all exist as pages. *The vast majority of exist as pages. *The vast majority of (at least the Fourze 40) exist as articles. *Pages for and could be created using Build's principle (W Halfs and OOO Parts). *Pages for individual would be as valid as Ranger Keys. *Pages for technique trinkets such as and the various Phase 1 ( / , ) and pre-Gokaiger Sentai (Souls, Secret Disks, Gosei Cards) collectibles could easily become their own substantial pages as evidenced by the example of the Nin Shuriken. 4. This is really an adendum to the first point, but common and repeated lines of objection are "this is not needed" or "this is unnecessary" with hardly any legitimate argument against the content other than I do not want this so no one else should or more accurately I am not interested in this so no one else should be. Kindly remember that this is a community encyclopedia which caters to an entire fandom; quite frankly who is any one of us to willfully refuse and deprive readers of information, this is an attitude very unbecoming of Wikia editors I must say. In any case, this content only adds to this Wiki, it does nothing to detract from or cause harm to it. I get the idea that some people object to this content for no real reason other than an unwillingness to put work into it themselves; in which case, no one person's work is demanded as is the nature of Wikia, remember this is all voluntary. 5. One argument, in regards to the individual Ranger Keys, is that they are adequately covered in the page Ranger Keys or, failing that, in the "Ranger Key" section of the character they are derived from. Quite frankly, the first point could not be further from reality in my view; without pages for individual collectibles, a page such as Ranger Keys would be hundreds of pages woefully compressed into one. "Ranger Key" sections are slightly better however, a section, by definition cannot hope to provide coverage equal to a seperate page. Infact, it may be an idea to trim these sections as their pages are created; for instance, a list of times a key has been used for Gokai Changes may not be strictly relevant to the character they are derived from. Really, a "Legend Devices" section should be little more than a gallery as the characters have the whole rest of their page to think about. 6. A more recent development is the establishment of an Official Japanese Kamen Rider Encyclopedia. Currently covering , they have ambitions to expand further into the . Of particular interest is that they are much less restrained in their coverage of items. For example, the Low Rabbit Fullbottle, which appears in only one episode of Build, gets its own page. We really should take heed from this encyclopedia, straight from the creators of Kamen Rider. I don't know about you all, but I would find it very hard to reconcile the restraints of our Wikis when an Official Encyclopedia has no such reservations. 7. To hold back on collectibles goes against the very nature of the shows we cover, in particular the Phase 2 Heisei Kamen Rider Series. In each and every modern episode and film, countless things are done with collectibles, they constantly change hands. And of course, they are also toys. There is a whole history, both in-universe and in reality, behind each and every one. In a sense they are just as valid as the characters who use them. 8. I do appreciate that the content I have recently created may prove overwhelming to evaluate. With that in mind, I have a selection of pages which I nominate as model examples of Collectible pages. The three legend Nin Shuriken (Kakuranger, Hurricaneger, and Jiraiya), for instance, are more than substantial and are indisputably covered more on their own page than they could hope to be on the Nin Shuriken page or on Sasuke and Yousuke Shiina. A more recent example is the auxiliary RyuSouls of the ongoing Ryusoulger; even after the first handful of episodes, they are quite substantial, and will only grow bigger and bigger as the series does. Ironically, for all their controversy, the Ranger Keys themselves are by far the most worthy; they are Gokai Change forms, instruments for mecha and, in many instances, warriors themselves. Quite frankly it is a great shame to this Wiki they were not all been created eight years ago when Gokaiger was still on the air. 9. To whom it may concern, it is both ridiculous and slanderous to brand legitimate encyclopedic content as "vandalism" just because you happen to think that it is "not needed." --MrThermomanPreacher (talk) 17:12, May 16, 2019 (UTC) Responses SuperSheepRanger - (To 1) See counterpoint for 2 as to why individual pages aren't beneficial. 2-Counterpoint (SuperSheepRanger): Most individual pages for Kyutama, Zyudenchi and Ressha would be the afforementioned perpetual stubs. You could barely fill two paragraphs with most of them, and some weren't even used in-series. Individual pages would just clutter the wiki and make navigation more of a hastle without any real benefit. 3- Counterpoint (SuperSheepRanger): You could really argue that the individual ridewatch pages are unneccessary too. Also, it should be noted many of the aforementioned pages on Kamen Rider Wiki are for the physical armor created by the collectibles. Most sentai collectibles do not create unique costume parts in the way Kamen Rider collectibles do, so there is less to add. 4- Counterpoint (SuperSheepRanger): Unless a list of individual episode appearances is added to each collectible, which could be done on the category page, there would be no original information to justify the existence of the individual pages with the already existing category pages having descriptions and pictures. Also, while you may be taking this work on yourself, it still creates extra administrative burden on the admins who have to keep track of pages, meaning now each individual page needs to be watched. 5-Counterpoint (SuperSheepRanger): While an argument could be made to improve the ranger key section on individual ranger pages, making a separate page for each ranger key when they are already covered by the aforementioned category pages is rather redundant. It is already known each ranger key does, and most rangers' pages mention the instances each key is used. There is no information that would be exclusive to the individual keys' pages, as they are already covered in the multitude of other pages they are featured. 6-Counterpoint (From SuperSheepRanger): Kamen Rider collectibles tie into unique forms more often than sentai collectibles, with each KR collectible like a gashat from Ex-Aid being capable of creating a new form. A much smaller selection of Sentai collectibles cause this, making them less relevant and giving us less information about them. SkepticalKecleon An overall point that doesn't tie into a specific section: just because something can be added doesn't mean it's necessary. The information about the ranger keys is already accessible from various pages (the original rangers, the gokaigers, and episodes). Same with every other collectible. The original pages also ''provide more context than the abridged versions of each episode that are provided for some of these articles.SkepticalKecleon (talk) 19:02, May 16, 2019 (UTC) 4-Counterpoint (building off of SuperSheepRanger): the administrative overhead is a big problem given that there are over 200 sentai keys and another 100 or so legendary keys. That's at ''minimum 300 more pages to keep track of. Compare this with Gashats and Fullbottles, the latter of which has slightly more than 80 (including Evolbottles and Lostbottles).SkepticalKecleon (talk) 18:47, May 16, 2019 (UTC) 8-Counterpoint (From SkepticalKecleon): Gokai Change forms are rarely unique, outside of Go-On Wings, Gokai Christmas, and gender-swapped versions of a few forms. Those should be noted on the page for the original ranger in the case of gender-swapped forms and Wings and Christmas should be discussed on the pages of the rangers who take on those forms. Additionally, regarding the ToQ keys: while I am still strongly of the opinion that there shouldn't be any ranger key articles, the least that could be done would be to put all the ToQ1 keys (for example) in one page instead of having separate ones for each color. Also, to address the Nin Shurikens: I just read over the Kakuranger one. Every instance of history was a variation of "X character used the cloning ability". Whether or not it worked or the circumstance of that ability's use isn't very relevant and I can just read about their appearances in the "appearances" section. That edit (which I would consider to be an improvement) alone would scrap 60-80 percent of the content in the article and render it a stub. SkepticalKecleon (talk) 18:43, May 16, 2019 (UTC) Nbajammer (Admin) 1. We absolutely do cover relevant content, but we do not need thousands of stub pages for this content. It is more appropriately covered on the individual pages of the rangers or whatever relevant. A page for the Shinken Red ranger key is not needed, because the key represents Takeru Shiba's powers. It is best suited for Takeru's page. Having each on the corresponding ranger page plus one page about keys collectively is suitable coverage. Duplicating that information onto a stub page is unnecessary and clutters the wiki. That is why we have a policy forbidding stub pages. As it is valid content, it is already covered in the most appropriate page(s). 2. A stub as defined by wiki policy is a page with very little to no real content which is likely to never be updated again. We don't need pages for, say, individual ranger keys. While it is possible that future crossovers could feature Gokaigers who might use them, it is not feasable to maintain individual pages for which only a single line or two may ever be added. It is more appropriate to cover them on the individual ranger pages instead. It matters not what Fandom's definition of a stub is in terms of page size - if it does not meet our criteria for pages, it will get deleted regardless of size. 3. Because other pages exist does not mean similar pages should be made. Many of those should probably also be deleted, and ironically many were also made by you. The fact that they haven't been deleted yet does not indicate passive acceptability on the part of the admins. 4. No legitimate argument? How about the fact that it is duplication of content already covered on more appropriate pages? How about the fact that these are additional stub pages in violation of wiki policy? Yes, this is a community encyclopedia for a fandom. The information is already sufficiently covered. Absolutely very valid points. The fact that you don't agree doesn't mean they aren't valid. 5. The first part is absolutely true. It is about the keys as an item. The Ranger Key section (or, as appropriate, Legendary Ranger Devices section) serves a character-focused purpose. These sections define exactly what we need to and properly convey the necessary information to editors. These sections as they currently exist are absolutely fine. There are other and better ways to trim pages, such as tabbering their video game appearances by game, rather than a section per title. 6. That is its own thing, and it has no bearing on us (nor do we on it). Two separate resources for effectively the same or similar subjects. Each has its own merits and that is perfectly fine. 7. Incorrect. We're not holding collectibles back - we're portraying the collectibles on the most appropriate pages for those collectibles, and including a page for the collectibles on the whole. 8. The problem isn't that it is overwhelming to evaluate. The problem is that is is unnecessary, cluttering, and duplication. And that such a project was undertaken without the okay of the admins. 9. It is not vandalism in the way yout hink it is - it's vandlism in that it creates work for us to maintain these unnecessary pages in order to make you happy versus keeping that information in the most acceptable place rather than duplicating it. Perhaps vandalism wasn't the right word that someone used, but the principle nonetheless that it is what is - duplicating and unnecessary. MrThermomanPreacher Well, I'm at a loss. Clearly sentence has been passed before it could begin. However, I feel I must reiterate my point that there is no official stub policy. I mean, be free to point it out if I'm missing something, but I'm reading Style Guide/Rules right now and there's absolutely nothing about stubs, nor is there on Style Guide/Page Guidelines. And you should know that I intend to continue developing the pages on my sandbox. I would appreciate if the minority of pages that have already been deleted by temporarily restored so I can derive information I have added. --MrThermomanPreacher (talk) 22:03, May 16, 2019 (UTC) :Take note of "Just because something isn't listed here does not mean it isn't a rule." at the bottom of the rules page. We have never permitted stub pages, and I don't foresee that we ever will. You are welcome to put in your Sandbox what you will, but the information is already on the wiki so I don't see the point in further duplicating it.